remmington
Apprentice
Owns Spark Eroder
Posts: 4,971
|
Post by remmington on Jun 18, 2023 20:10:46 GMT 1
There is a huge debate on another forum I go on about electric cars.
What does everybody reckon about them here?
|
|
|
|
Post by valhalla on Jun 18, 2023 21:41:30 GMT 1
There is a huge debate on another forum I go on about electric cars. What does everybody reckon about them here? Wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. Over-hyped, expensive, and likely to be a millstone around everyone's neck that has them. Think DPF's are trouble? Just wait until a few of these have exploded at recharging-points (if you can find one that is working) and the local fire-service has refused to attend on "safety grounds"
Until battery technology has properly caught-up (and that means another 7-10years from now) and the electrical distribution network has been properly sorted (could be 20years from now) to handle the sorts of loads these will impart on it, they make no sense whatsoever.
Sorry to be so negative about these - I really wish I could think of some positives - but I'm no longer toeing the "government line". Westminster has caused enough problems over the last decade or so, and we don't need them interfering in the markets anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rhubarb on Jun 18, 2023 22:25:29 GMT 1
Pure folly: Not anywhere near as green as they are made out to be.
Poorly thought through, both the vehicles and the infastructure.
Overpriced, overweight, fire hazzards. Too fast for their own good.
Rapid charging is no good for the batteries, the batteries are stupid money to replace. Daft people out there replacing one cell to try and get around it.
If they made a really cheap and small practical useable version for use just in cities I should see them being of some use.
I did an insurance quote for fun on a four year old 18grand Tesla 3...... (800 premium, 900 excess).
I currently pay 158 quid a year for my Mitsubishi.
|
|
remmington
Apprentice
Owns Spark Eroder
Posts: 4,971
|
Post by remmington on Jun 18, 2023 23:28:52 GMT 1
My new favorite saying is "splash and dash".
Meaning the art of refueling a ICE car.
---------
I don't want one - an EV.
I not a new car buyer or a renter (PCP).
I don't have "in warranty" cars.
These EV's PHEV's just look too much money for what they are to me (I know that sounds simplistic). But that is how I feel about them.
|
|
|
|
Post by valhalla on Jun 19, 2023 0:35:53 GMT 1
This chappie, Geoff Buys Cars, doesn't seem to pull any punches on the subject;
I actually agree with everything that Rowan Atkinson wrote in his article on the very subject - EV's are simply a way of forcing people to spend more money, as fast as possible, only to have to spend more money in a few years time (think all about "Diesels in early 2000's"). In other words, if you want to understand the arguements and viewpoints, especially in government policy, just "follow the money". It works every time.
He then goes on into a second video to defend his first video, after an "industry expert" (actually a paid lobbyist) attempted to debunk the article of Rowan Atkinson's. The very first thing Geoff Buys Cars did was to see who was behind all of this - makes interesting study.
The whole issue is being driven by money & industry, nothing to do with environmental concerns. We cannot do much about the rest of the world (they are the problem, as Rhubarb wrote the other day in another thread) but can take our own MP's and local governments to-task over so-called environmental policies. They cannot feign ignorance on many of the points raised in this second video, as it is not possible to be elected to a position of responsibility and still be that stupid - only hereditary peers have that luxury. |
|
|
|
Post by Joepublic on Jun 19, 2023 8:39:59 GMT 1
Went with a mate to collect this on Friday   The seller and mate went for a test drive leaving me sat in our transport down to Telford, Steves 05 plate X5. Further down the cul de sac a guy was polishing his grey jag xf whilst keeping an eye on the pikey in the x5 😂 I’ve not driven it before so started it up and drove past the xf to turn the x5 around, again the guys eyes went from his shiny xf to me and back again. I parked up and wandered over to complement him on his immaculate car and relieve the tension. Parked on the drive was an electric Peugeot that has a range of 250 - but not in hot weather and not in cold weather either he says. He has a charger on the drive because he has issues at Tescos 3 chargers- ones a dedicated tesla charger (unsuitable- how?), the other 2 get hogged / blocked by shopping whilst charging for hours on the nearby retail park. He occasionally has to travel to Liverpool (around 80 miles each way), but has only taken the Peugeot once as range anxiety got the better of him… Guy at works wife swapped her Mercedes for an electric Porsche- £100k, as a test they drove from Stoke to York needing a mid journey charge on a fast charger, 50 min stop put around 25% in! Range anxiety kicked in and she contacted the dealer who offered £75k px against a petrol car. At work the few ev owners there are park on the chargers for 12 hours…. I just can’t see it working, there’s also talk of banning Evs from multi-storey car parks due to fire risk? |
|
|
|
Post by givusaclue on Jun 19, 2023 12:55:54 GMT 1
wot you lot all said, nothing positive to add regarding ev's at all
it's just smoke & mirrors with a potentially crippling expense for those least able to pay it on the horizon of ev ownership especially in the ulez areas
|
|
|
|
Post by chippie on Jun 19, 2023 13:00:21 GMT 1
Can’t really add any more weight to the argument against ‘milk floats…’. But the comment voiced about ulez….prompts a quote….
The government set emissions targets for cars that are subject to the MoT test….if they pass, then good continue on your way…so if they are fit for the road then ulez zones are bullshit!
|
|
|
|
Post by valhalla on Jun 19, 2023 15:47:05 GMT 1
wot you lot all said, nothing positive to add regarding ev's at all it's just smoke & mirrors with a potentially crippling expense for those least able to pay it on the horizon of ev ownership especially in the ulez areas The cost-of-ownership thing was something I had not really thought-about before, but I see from many of the discussions and videos that it has become a central part of the arguement away from BEV ownership.
There is absolutely no way that a young family with bills to pay, either a rotten mortgage-deal or horrendous rent to pay each month, and a limited amount of money coming-in - no way can they afford this vanity-project from our esteemed leaders. As so many commentators are now adding, "Yes, net-zero for 2050 is going to cost us all dearly, and all of us will be poorer and colder as a result of this crass-stupidity"
I don't think that it is fair of any government to force the hand of the "just making-do" class of citizen to have to part with their present cars, when those same cars are all just ticking along nicely right now. They have never been better engineered, or more emissions compliant than right now.
What we are all missing is a proper lobby-group for motorists, one that is truly independant of the motor-industry (vested interests all-round there, methinks) and capable of aggragating and imparting feedback into government. Given the number of cars (and motorists) on the road, you would have thought that a proper lobby-group would have the ultimate clout?
|
|
remmington
Apprentice
Owns Spark Eroder
Posts: 4,971
|
Post by remmington on Jun 19, 2023 18:41:52 GMT 1
wot you lot all said, nothing positive to add regarding ev's at all it's just smoke & mirrors with a potentially crippling expense for those least able to pay it on the horizon of ev ownership especially in the ulez areas The cost-of-ownership thing was something I had not really thought-about before, but I see from many of the discussions and videos that it has become a central part of the arguement away from BEV ownership. There is absolutely no way that a young family with bills to pay, either a rotten mortgage-deal or horrendous rent to pay each month, and a limited amount of money coming-in - no way can they afford this vanity-project from our esteemed leaders. As so many commentators are now adding, "Yes, net-zero for 2050 is going to cost us all dearly, and all of us will be poorer and colder as a result of this crass-stupidity" I don't think that it is fair of any government to force the hand of the "just making-do" class of citizen to have to part with their present cars, when those same cars are all just ticking along nicely right now. They have never been better engineered, or more emissions compliant than right now. What we are all missing is a proper lobby-group for motorists, one that is truly independant of the motor-industry (vested interests all-round there, methinks) and capable of aggragating and imparting feedback into government. Given the number of cars (and motorists) on the road, you would have thought that a proper lobby-group would have the ultimate clout?
That is a good suggestion. Not one I thought of to be honest.. |
|
|
|
Post by chippie on Jun 19, 2023 18:53:44 GMT 1
Given the high profile of e vehicles….well cars.. and to a lesser degree vans… I haven’t t heard of any plans for e hgv’s…or was I asleep at that presentation? Round our way, there a few on the estate that have taken up ev’s or phev….we see the odd delivery van that is leccy…( a milk float dressed up as a van…  ) but hgv’s are still diesel powered….rolling up at the supermarkets and various shops… Anyone know different? |
|
|
|
Post by rhyds on Jun 19, 2023 19:25:14 GMT 1
Given the high profile of e vehicles….well cars.. and to a lesser degree vans… I haven’t t heard of any plans for e hgv’s…or was I asleep at that presentation? Round our way, there a few on the estate that have taken up ev’s or phev….we see the odd delivery van that is leccy…( a milk float dressed up as a van… ) but hgv’s are still diesel powered….rolling up at the supermarkets and various shops… Anyone know different? There's loads of hype/nonsense out there about electric HGVs. In short they're going to be very difficult to change to electric for anything other than smaller vehicles for in-town multi-drop because you loose too much payload capacity to make way for the batteries, and you need a lot of charging capacity to turn the trucks around quickly. Lots of truckmakers have come up with concepts and there's lots of talk about using fixed overhead electrification (like trains) on some motorways, but it doesn't seem very workable. One change that HGVs are going through is a big increase in CNG (compressed natural gas) powered tractor units. A friend works for Evri/Hermes driving HGVs between their main distribution centres and their fleet are mostly CNG IVECO units. The trucks run well by all accounts, and Evri's setup being fixed routes makes it easier to handle CNG refuelling. |
|
remmington
Apprentice
Owns Spark Eroder
Posts: 4,971
|
Post by remmington on Jun 19, 2023 19:51:48 GMT 1
Given the high profile of e vehicles….well cars.. and to a lesser degree vans… I haven’t t heard of any plans for e hgv’s…or was I asleep at that presentation? Round our way, there a few on the estate that have taken up ev’s or phev….we see the odd delivery van that is leccy…( a milk float dressed up as a van… ) but hgv’s are still diesel powered….rolling up at the supermarkets and various shops… Anyone know different? There's loads of hype/nonsense out there about electric HGVs. In short they're going to be very difficult to change to electric for anything other than smaller vehicles for in-town multi-drop because you loose too much payload capacity to make way for the batteries, and you need a lot of charging capacity to turn the trucks around quickly. Lots of truckmakers have come up with concepts and there's lots of talk about using fixed overhead electrification (like trains) on some motorways, but it doesn't seem very workable. One change that HGVs are going through is a big increase in CNG (compressed natural gas) powered tractor units. A friend works for Evri/Hermes driving HGVs between their main distribution centres and their fleet are mostly CNG IVECO units. The trucks run well by all accounts, and Evri's setup being fixed routes makes it easier to handle CNG refuelling. I had a read of this the other night www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/gas-powered-trucks.htmlAnd sadly this: trans.info/gas-fuelled-trucks-are-up-to-five-times-worse-than-diesels-unexpected-results-of-tests-161386 |
|
|
|
Post by rhyds on Jun 19, 2023 19:56:43 GMT 1
In general I can see the case for purely electric cars in certain situations, mainly short/medium trips in congested city centres, and hybrid isn't really a new technology given the Prius etc have been about since the early 00s.
The problem, as everyone says, is the fact that the change to electric is being timetabled by government rather than being market and consumer led. Carmakers are going to concentrate on EVs because the various tax breaks etc mean they sell well, especially as new cars.
Another currently unanswered question is how the government is going to recover the billions of pounds its going to lose in fuel duty. VED/Car tax is easy, you just charge EVs like normal cars, but to replace fuel duty (a usage tax) you're looking at having to implement something like per-mile road charging and vehicle tracking, as unlike petrol and diesel you can't tax electricity at source.
|
|
|
|
Post by OldGit on Jun 19, 2023 20:04:39 GMT 1
I work on them most days, they're sh!t. BEV's, to wring every bit of range out of the battery you need to drive with a block of wood under the accelerator, heating/aircon off and avoid hills, traffic or journeys where there is only one charging option. Tyre wear is excessive too.
Hybrids - probably the better option, except you're lugging a couple of hundred kilos of battery plus the motor around so fuel 'economy' is far worse than the non-hybrid option. Again, tyre wear is excessive.
Brake pad wear isn't too bad on either, but the discs tend to corrode and get pitted / scored due to lack of hard braking, biggest problem is the PTC heater causing the HV to shut down, the hybrid will stop working on electric or ICE if the HV has a fault. BEV's, the PTC issue still exists but about 50/50 chance of one of the motors mechanically packing up or having a coolant breach, causing the HV to shutdown.
Merc/VWG vehicles are the worst I've come across electromechanically, Teslas have typical US build 'quality', Volvo suffer from mainly motor & PTC heater issues, PSA are probably the least troublesome. The Ford Mach-E. demonstrator being delivered to the dealer where the Mrs. works, broke down as they tried to get it off the transporter..... Their carpark is 40% transit breakdowns, 30% EV/hybrid breakdowns, 10% RS owners wanting stuff done they've 'found on the internet' and the remaining 20% is day to day services & ICE breakdowns.
We're changing about 2-3 batteries in BEV's a week, about the same PTC heaters across both types and 1 or 2 hybrid batteries a month plus HV cable faults, software updates etc. etc.
We reckon the sales reptiles finish the handover of a BEV with 'see you soon!', the MTBF is about 5k miles.
|
|
) but hgv’s are still diesel powered….rolling up at the supermarkets and various shops…
