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Post by trickydicky on Jul 10, 2020 22:40:12 GMT 1
I get all that, about the PRC being oppressive and not totally legit
What Irks me most is that they do a better job than say Bosch by reverse engineering the software and making it more user friendly more cost effective and more profitable for the end user
Then you have the problem of the supposed sworn enemies of the PRC offshoring all their manufacturing over to China to save paying europeans and Americans (It is us the consumers that have created this monster in the first place looking for "Value for money")
Where do you draw the line??
Everything electronic is already made in the PRC 🤐
The ship has already sailed (to China)🙊
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Post by valhalla on Jul 10, 2020 23:07:10 GMT 1
Interesting input... WE moan things in the UK - but we really don't have it so bad here... Do we?We have it very good over here. It is only when foreign state powers decide to stir-up trouble, usually through social media, that we all start to feel like "something is wrong". It isn't, and if we all just played to our strengths and ignored the disruptive influences, then we would be a more effective nation ourselves!
Back on tack!!!! I have been looking at the Bosch KTS systems through the Hickleys site, and I'm pretty sure that it isn't the way to go as an indi, not in this day and age. The risks of finding holes in the coverage are too great when you try to take out a 3-year subscription (to lower the annual costs) only to find you have 2years and 11months left of "holes" before you can go out and find another toolset.....
I added-up what I would need to spend through Hickletys to get where I need to get, and £4k is too much, especially where there is overlap with a) the Pico tools I have (I have a lot....) and b) the information system tools I have, such as Autodata and ALLDATA.
If you were a new garage, or start-up, then it would be less hard to swallow the whole cost (if you could afford to do-so) and just get the whole "family" of tools in one hit, but not when you are moving across from an existing set of tools.
So, back to trickydicky's links with diagnostic-connections.....and Autocom is winning the argument at the moment, so definitely much more investigation required there.
I'm looking at Texa in parallel, but the coverage there seems to favour makes like FIAT/Alfa, so it's horses-for-courses, and in my case, I can count on the fingers of one mutilated hand how many times I have seen an Italian make on Skye (plenty of hire cars out of Edinburgh/Inverness, but all they ever need is wheels & tyres....) so maybe not the way to go for me in particular.
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Post by valhalla on Jul 10, 2020 23:19:01 GMT 1
What Irks me most is that they do a better job than say Bosch by reverse engineering the software and making it more user friendly more cost effective and more profitable for the end user Yes, that has been the nagging detail for the last 10years for me. It's annoying that Bosch cannot see the daylight here, and simply undercut the cheap Chinese tools themselves. After all, it's their software, amongst others, that the Chinese are ripping-off, so why cannot Bosch price that s/w down to flood the market?
The tenacity of the Chinese to improve upon the systems they have reverse-engineered is immense, and the fact that you can achieve brilliant things for most makes from one machine is galling.
There is a threat to the Chinese, and that is whether any body of like-minded individuals decide to produce open-source software and hardware designs to do the same thing. By crowd-developing through different specialities, using common interfaces already around many workshops, you would have a tremendous toolset for years to come.
My suspicion is that EV's will be the disruptor to the current market of tools, as many new companies are joining the fray with their cars, and they may be more inclined to work in their own ways. Tesla is one such major influence in the market, where they operate like a West-Coast USA outfit, even in the EU - how they get away with block-exemption rules is a mystery to me!!
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Post by remmington on Jul 11, 2020 6:42:02 GMT 1
What Irks me most is that they do a better job than say Bosch by reverse engineering the software and making it more user friendly more cost effective and more profitable for the end user Yes, that has been the nagging detail for the last 10years for me. It's annoying that Bosch cannot see the daylight here, and simply undercut the cheap Chinese tools themselves. After all, it's their software, amongst others, that the Chinese are ripping-off, so why cannot Bosch price that s/w down to flood the market? The tenacity of the Chinese to improve upon the systems they have reverse-engineered is immense, and the fact that you can achieve brilliant things for most makes from one machine is galling. There is a threat to the Chinese, and that is whether any body of like-minded individuals decide to produce open-source software and hardware designs to do the same thing. By crowd-developing through different specialities, using common interfaces already around many workshops, you would have a tremendous toolset for years to come. My suspicion is that EV's will be the disruptor to the current market of tools, as many new companies are joining the fray with their cars, and they may be more inclined to work in their own ways. Tesla is one such major influence in the market, where they operate like a West-Coast USA outfit, even in the EU - how they get away with block-exemption rules is a mystery to me!!
so why cannot Bosch price that s/w down to flood the market?Bosch have had the monopoly in the Auto sector for so long - it is unreal how much power they have - and how they have abused this monopoly. Abused everybody from car manufacturers/car owners/car repairers and even there own Bosch selling agents. like-minded individuals decide to produce open-source softwareThis I have often wondered? I am convert to Apache OpenOffice - 100%. Microsoft were just getting silly with selling licences (even to school children). I know of no open source automotive diagnostic software at all. When you look at Rosstech VCDS - I do think they have got so many things right with this product - even down to the pricing structure.
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Post by valhalla on Jul 11, 2020 22:44:56 GMT 1
When you look at Rosstech VCDS - I do think they have got so many things right with this product - even down to the pricing structure. The thing that strikes me about Rosstech is that they are a good old USA outfit, and seem to know their market, as well as their technical details, perfectly. I have no qualms about upgrading their equipment and generally supporting them in any way I can, as they represent a very important support to my business. Good, honest, powerful software that is as simple, or as complex as you want to use it. No frills, but it is very easy to work-with, stores vehicle information better than anything else out there, and very little to complain about.
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Post by huffo on Jul 12, 2020 7:09:02 GMT 1
I know of no open source automotive diagnostic software at all. I wonder if that’s because the kind of people who have the ability to develop that open source software to read and control manufacturers proprietary computers prefer to focus their energy on developing entirely separate and more flexible packages such as MegaSquirt. There are a number of different open source solutions, but you have to take out the manufacturers computer and install and calibrate an entirely new system completely from scratch, only utilising the sensors, coil packs, injectors and spark plugs. That’s fine if you are building your own new/improved bespoke vehicle based on an existing model, but not much use if you are trying to repair an existing vehicle as cost effectively as possible. I don’t know if MegaSquirt’s gadgets and others of that ilk only talk to engine components or if their computer can control auto gearboxes, ABS, and CANBUS body controls.
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Post by remmington on Jul 12, 2020 7:42:52 GMT 1
When you look at Rosstech VCDS - I do think they have got so many things right with this product - even down to the pricing structure. The thing that strikes me about Rosstech is that they are a good old USA outfit, and seem to know their market, as well as their technical details, perfectly. I have no qualms about upgrading their equipment and generally supporting them in any way I can, as they represent a very important support to my business. Good, honest, powerful software that is as simple, or as complex as you want to use it. No frills, but it is very easy to work-with, stores vehicle information better than anything else out there, and very little to complain about. I have had VAG COM stuff from the first Beta offerings. Rosstech... You buy an interface - download the software for free - upgrade it for free - for life - it never times out. When the hardware tech moves on - you buy another interface (because you need another interface). Download some more software for free - upgrade it for free. If you are a DIY chap doing your own cars - you pay less (limited VIN). If you are garage you pay more (unlimited VINs). But you are getting the same tool and software. This I like - this is bit about Rosstech - I admire...Then there is Rosstech Wiki - I often research jobs I gotta do in my workshop - this is such a resource of info - it is unreal. They even apologise that Rosstech Wiki is incomplete. You try getting any customer support for Bosch ESi anywhere. Even after all these years I am still finding functions VCDS does. Valhalla's comment of "powerful software that is as simple, or as complex as you want to use it" - is very correct (I could not word it better myself - Valhalla is good with words ). Then there is the price - the full unlimited HEXNET Wifi interface is only £480. (But you can get a 3 vehicle interface on a USB lead for £225 - for DIY work) The only difference in coverage for the HEXNET is - Lamborghini car coverage - plus the up coming VW Crafter van coverage for HEXNET. Anybody here got a Lambo? Umm... Voicey might - but he can afford the extra for HEXNET out of his first hour's charged labour - (joke!) Customer support - email Rosstech - some one will email you back in about 48hrs. I have only done this three times in all these years. In reply to these email - I got a two line answer - with "try this..........." and they had focused on what I was doing wrong. The third time - they asked for "network info" - I gave them this. Four days later a new interface arrived with a postpaid jiffy bag for me to return them my interface. Another thing is - they have sold allot of these VCDS kits - they are well used - the amount of "YOU TUBE" video support from users is unlimited. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- WE do allot of VAG DSG auto gearbox repairs here - lots - it is a good earner for us. When we first started out - with our "self learning" course on DSG gearbox repair - me and my Russian fitter - were plugged into a Skoda Superb with VCDS - watching streaming youtube video's in Russian - of a Russian chap in a shed with VCDS - repairing and testing the mechatronic units. We are using VCDS off the car and on the bench - with VAG gearbox controllers and a power supply for testing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hold this thought - if you don't get "coms" with VCDS - you think you have a dead module on the car - if you don't get "coms" with other scan tools - you just think the scan tool is not working or does not have coverage... The above speaks volumes for VCDS...
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Post by remmington on Jul 12, 2020 7:54:09 GMT 1
I know of no open source automotive diagnostic software at all. I wonder if that’s because the kind of people who have the ability to develop that open source software to read and control manufacturers proprietary computers prefer to focus their energy on developing entirely separate and more flexible packages such as MegaSquirt. There are a number of different open source solutions, but you have to take out the manufacturers computer and install and calibrate an entirely new system completely from scratch, only utilising the sensors, coil packs, injectors and spark plugs. That’s fine if you are building your own new/improved bespoke vehicle based on an existing model, but not much use if you are trying to repair an existing vehicle as cost effectively as possible. I don’t know if MegaSquirt’s gadgets and others of that ilk only talk to engine components or if their computer can control auto gearboxes, ABS, and CANBUS body controls. I would think - my thoughts are on open sourced software are: 1. Writing code to run - word processing and spreadsheets is easy ish - in the world of software geeks. 2. If you get a problem - what have you really destroyed - a PC that can be reformatted. 3. A car is a differing beast - they are internally networked - they are not so easy to reboot with corrupted software (the cost/money risk is also higher). 4. Code to run a new function is easier to write than - code to find a function that is not working... 5. The lads who are interested - are mapping - changing code - not writing it. I may not have explained this very well - maybe? Valhalla good enlarge...?
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Post by valhalla on Jul 12, 2020 13:43:28 GMT 1
I know of no open source automotive diagnostic software at all. I wonder if that’s because the kind of people who have the ability to develop that open source software to read and control manufacturers proprietary computers prefer to focus their energy on developing entirely separate and more flexible packages such as MegaSquirt. There are a number of different open source solutions, but you have to take out the manufacturers computer and install and calibrate an entirely new system completely from scratch, only utilising the sensors, coil packs, injectors and spark plugs. That’s fine if you are building your own new/improved bespoke vehicle based on an existing model, but not much use if you are trying to repair an existing vehicle as cost effectively as possible. I don’t know if MegaSquirt’s gadgets and others of that ilk only talk to engine components or if their computer can control auto gearboxes, ABS, and CANBUS body controls. It's definitely much easier to start from scratch than try to fix something that is broken, needs modifying, or has tonnes of "security software" wrapped around the outside. So people like Mega Squirt take the easy option by building-up a code structure that is simple, even by 1990 standard, that just does the basics. No emissions, no driveability, no module interactions (or very little, put it that way) and little diagnostic layer. As sort of WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get), which is perfect for most tinkerers!
Aftermarket code structures like these are possible from two perspectives; 1) the code is small, so the processing is lighter, and b) ECU processing hardware is much more powerful that ever before. So this masks the fact that the sort of code being written by Bosch (for example) in early 1990's was incredibly well-written and efficient, and you had to do this because you really were pushing the boundaries on what was possible. Kids these days, they don't know how good they have got it!!!! One example of how close it all was, the Bosch MSA controllers were typically running two completely separate processors in parallel to one another, accessing two separate ROM's. beautifully synch'd to one another to keep it all in harmony. The sort of processing these "old bangers" were doing would take nearly 15years for the mainstream computing industry to catch-up, so it really was very impressive.
Where the OpenSource community has done quite a lot of good is the raw analysis of signals, such as CANbus communications, and made that a target to reverse-engineer, but that is a much lower level (and requires a moderate amount of computing-ability to get up-and-running) of diagnosis than the average scantool, which is taking each controllers own built-in diagnostic layer/ing and interpretation of those signals, and then reports what the dealer tools would see, rather than a re-coded diagnostic layer in the tool's software itself. That's really the missing link; take the reverse-engineered raw signals, and put them through a tool's diagnostic code to provide a completely 3rd-party interpretation - universal across all vehicle platforms - of what is wrong, i.e. take out the "middle man" which is Ford, PSA, GM, etc.
By standardising the way that raw signals are presented, an OpenSource scantool would provide the same approach to each vehicle platform, which would be similar to the thought-processes that a Diagnostic Engineer uses when he/she plugs an oscilloscope into the J1962, or wherever, and uses his/her common methods to deal with every car. For example, some people like to first check that the voltage levels across all the various CAN layers are plausible, before even trying to access any module directly - I know that I do this before anything else - and thus form an opinion of electromechanical integrity of the CANbus's network. You would then do a complete module scan of every module on the car with a scantool, assess which modules "don't communicate", but what if you just monitored the CAN traffic to see which modules are dead? A stream of CANbus data contains all that information, much faster, and is freely accessible within a Linux terminal session - networking is one thing that Linux / UNIX does rather well.
On that latter subject, DoIP (Diagnistics over Internet Protocol) is also trivial to handle in Linux, because it is just a convergence of automotive towards PC networking, so it has all been done over the last several decades. yet many new scantools today are shipping without this facility.
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Post by remmington on Jul 12, 2020 14:14:05 GMT 1
I wonder if that’s because the kind of people who have the ability to develop that open source software to read and control manufacturers proprietary computers prefer to focus their energy on developing entirely separate and more flexible packages such as MegaSquirt. There are a number of different open source solutions, but you have to take out the manufacturers computer and install and calibrate an entirely new system completely from scratch, only utilising the sensors, coil packs, injectors and spark plugs. That’s fine if you are building your own new/improved bespoke vehicle based on an existing model, but not much use if you are trying to repair an existing vehicle as cost effectively as possible. I don’t know if MegaSquirt’s gadgets and others of that ilk only talk to engine components or if their computer can control auto gearboxes, ABS, and CANBUS body controls. It's definitely much easier to start from scratch than try to fix something that is broken, needs modifying, or has tonnes of "security software" wrapped around the outside. So people like Mega Squirt take the easy option by building-up a code structure that is simple, even by 1990 standard, that just does the basics. No emissions, no driveability, no module interactions (or very little, put it that way) and little diagnostic layer. As sort of WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get), which is perfect for most tinkerers! Aftermarket code structures like these are possible from two perspectives; 1) the code is small, so the processing is lighter, and b) ECU processing hardware is much more powerful that ever before. So this masks the fact that the sort of code being written by Bosch (for example) in early 1990's was incredibly well-written and efficient, and you had to do this because you really were pushing the boundaries on what was possible. Kids these days, they don't know how good they have got it!!!! One example of how close it all was, the Bosch MSA controllers were typically running two completely separate processors in parallel to one another, accessing two separate ROM's. beautifully synch'd to one another to keep it all in harmony. The sort of processing these "old bangers" were doing would take nearly 15years for the mainstream computing industry to catch-up, so it really was very impressive. Where the OpenSource community has done quite a lot of good is the raw analysis of signals, such as CANbus communications, and made that a target to reverse-engineer, but that is a much lower level (and requires a moderate amount of computing-ability to get up-and-running) of diagnosis than the average scantool, which is taking each controllers own built-in diagnostic layer/ing and interpretation of those signals, and then reports what the dealer tools would see, rather than a re-coded diagnostic layer in the tool's software itself. That's really the missing link; take the reverse-engineered raw signals, and put them through a tool's diagnostic code to provide a completely 3rd-party interpretation - universal across all vehicle platforms - of what is wrong, i.e. take out the "middle man" which is Ford, PSA, GM, etc. By standardising the way that raw signals are presented, an OpenSource scantool would provide the same approach to each vehicle platform, which would be similar to the thought-processes that a Diagnostic Engineer uses when he/she plugs an oscilloscope into the J1962, or wherever, and uses his/her common methods to deal with every car. For example, some people like to first check that the voltage levels across all the various CAN layers are plausible, before even trying to access any module directly - I know that I do this before anything else - and thus form an opinion of electromechanical integrity of the CANbus's network. You would then do a complete module scan of every module on the car with a scantool, assess which modules "don't communicate", but what if you just monitored the CAN traffic to see which modules are dead? A stream of CANbus data contains all that information, much faster, and is freely accessible within a Linux terminal session - networking is one thing that Linux / UNIX does rather well. On that latter subject, DoIP (Diagnistics over Internet Protocol) is also trivial to handle in Linux, because it is just a convergence of automotive towards PC networking, so it has all been done over the last several decades. yet many new scantools today are shipping without this facility.
I SAID THE MAN FROM THE NORTH (Valhalla) WOULD GIVE A BETTER TAKE ON THIS THAN I DID...As Valhalla has said - "clustering" every CAN module on the car - at the start of every diagnostic session - is what we should be doing. (It is also what VCDS does) Linux / UNIX - yes the code of OpenSource...
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Post by rhyds on Jul 17, 2020 11:11:24 GMT 1
The big issue with open source development is that its something that's mainly a labour of love for developers/programmers, and not always easy to make commercially successful (or even cover costs).
The other part is that the programming, protocols and other basic information regarding ECUs and other components are proprietary and hard to get hold of. Reverse engineering is certainly possible, but unless you have lots of time and skill and want to do it for the love of it you'll never get the money back.
As for comparing with LibreOffice, most of its work is pretty much "internal" to LibreOffice, the only time they really have to worry about what other developers are doing is for things like file types (saving and opening MS Word or PDF documents for example) and that they remain reasonably compatible (they aren't always 100%). This is why megasquirt etc is popular, as you throw away all the proprietary stuff and simply use the physical hardware (Sensors/injectors/throttle motors) as appropriate.
Think of LibreOffice as going out and developing a new metric socket set, whereas a scan tool would be like developing the entire rolling tool cabinet.
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Post by liam99 on Jul 19, 2020 18:24:30 GMT 1
I'm in the same boat, My autel needs updating debating update it or something new like new Autel, Launch, Topdon or Autocom, Bosch and a windows based tablet/Laptop screen that folds flat like Panasonic Toughbook range
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Post by valhalla on Jul 20, 2020 23:33:15 GMT 1
It's still looking like Autocom Cars from my point of view. I really do need to get my finger out and talk to the people trickydicky suggested above, as they do seem to be the best bet for this particular tool. I'm just working like a busy-fool these last few days, doing monkey-work that doesn't need anything except good fortune.....
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Post by valhalla on Jul 22, 2020 0:05:14 GMT 1
Autocom it is. It's nice to talk to someone in the UK that sounds like they are prepared to give the support needed to keep things sweet as time progresses.
I'll report back as I receive the equipment, but as it stands (partly due to my remote location) I'm going for a turn-key package of Autocom CDP+ interface, the Cars software (Trucks is just too esoteric for me right now, and no hope of payback) and a pre-loaded new laptop that ought to be setup and ready to run when it arrives, plus the DoIP lead/adapter for the latest JLR offerings coming through.
It's nice to give the business to a UK reseller of EU-sourced and researched software, not least that their base is not all that far from my old hunting-ground; I'm almost tempted to go down there and fetch it myself, and drop-in on my mate's place at the same time, but I guess that the CV lockdown has not gone away enough yet.
Weighing-up the running costs in the medium term, this is going to be less costly than just renewing with Autel for another 3years - silly really, considering that all Autel has to do is supply software, no hardware....... The clincher is really the thought of not having to battle my way through an opaque software-renewal process with Autel_UK / Autel_US / Autel_international ever again......that awful moment when you are comitting thousands of pounds to the murkiness of the 'web with no particular guarantee that anything is going to be fulfilled at the other end, wherever the other end is!
The Autel MS908 will still be there in the wings, for all the old Asian custom that comes through the doors, as the software does not time-out. I don't see myself selling it on (like I have done in the past with other equipment) as the resale does not outweigh the aggravation of finding the odd "hole" in Autocom coverage.
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Post by trickydicky on Jul 22, 2020 10:43:46 GMT 1
Autocom it is. It's nice to talk to someone in the UK that sounds like they are prepared to give the support needed to keep things sweet as time progresses. I'll report back as I receive the equipment, but as it stands (partly due to my remote location) I'm going for a turn-key package of Autocom CDP+ interface, the Cars software (Trucks is just too esoteric for me right now, and no hope of payback) and a pre-loaded new laptop that ought to be setup and ready to run when it arrives, plus the DoIP lead/adapter for the latest JLR offerings coming through. It's nice to give the business to a UK reseller of EU-sourced and researched software, not least that their base is not all that far from my old hunting-ground; I'm almost tempted to go down there and fetch it myself, and drop-in on my mate's place at the same time, but I guess that the CV lockdown has not gone away enough yet. Weighing-up the running costs in the medium term, this is going to be less costly than just renewing with Autel for another 3years - silly really, considering that all Autel has to do is supply software, no hardware....... The clincher is really the thought of not having to battle my way through an opaque software-renewal process with Autel_UK / Autel_US / Autel_international ever again......that awful moment when you are comitting thousands of pounds to the murkiness of the 'web with no particular guarantee that anything is going to be fulfilled at the other end, wherever the other end is! The Autel MS908 will still be there in the wings, for all the old Asian custom that comes through the doors, as the software does not time-out. I don't see myself selling it on (like I have done in the past with other equipment) as the resale does not outweigh the aggravation of finding the odd "hole" in Autocom coverage.
Looking forward to reading the review Well done, tough decision to make 👍
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