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Post by Rhubarb on Nov 16, 2023 22:41:07 GMT 1
As remmington says, if the vehicle went in running for a routine service, changed the fuel filter and this was the result, how would you explain that to your customer? Who would pay the parts bill? That's what liability insurance is for.
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Post by Rhubarb on Nov 16, 2023 22:51:17 GMT 1
Now I know that Piezo injectors are ultra sensitive, as in there's things you don't do, like test them with a multimeter, or disconnect them whilst running. That would create a surge and/or a spike.
I'm trying to get my head around a dry injector burning itself out. I suppose the only plausible thing is the flowing diesel cools them down?
In this day and age you'd expect a non start cranking derv to shut itself off to prevent damage.
I've known of a few vehicles with piezo injectors running out of fuel and it's done no damage. I suppose they were just lucky.
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OldGit
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Post by OldGit on Nov 16, 2023 23:34:13 GMT 1
'Modern' diesels generally never run out of fuel - as in run dry, they have a 'forced misfire / driver inducement' mode which is (in M-B terms) <1.3l of fuel remaining and 'forced shutdown' which is <1.0l of fuel remaining. The reason is to protect the HP fuel pump which relies on the molecular size of diesel to keep the rotor 'floating' in it's bearings thereby preventing the tips from digging in to the housing, also to keep the injectors 'wet' (they are supplied 'wet'). No what I can't get my head around is that any air in the HP side will vent to the bleed-off line, not force its way through the injector, lack of pressure in the rail or HP lines won't cause the injectors to empty themselves and remove the cooling effect of hot diesel! Clearly opening the system will introduce air / leak fuel out, so does changing the fuel filter - but that shouldn't empty the HP side, or at least should leave the pump & injectors wet whilst the air disappears back to tank. given the lack of warnings and bleed procedures in the software, it must be a very rare edge case for this to happen. Over the last few days I've heard people say 'oh, I've heard of that' but with two exceptions, I'm not aware of any other first-hand experiences.
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remmington
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Post by remmington on Nov 16, 2023 23:54:57 GMT 1
As remmington says, if the vehicle went in running for a routine service, changed the fuel filter and this was the result, how would you explain that to your customer? Who would pay the parts bill? In the particular case this isn't what happened is it. In your example would any garage own up to what could happen in the event it went t*ts up in remmingtons experience? If it came in running and the injectors failed when I bled a filter change up - personally I would swallow the cost of a set of injectors. I also would not claim on my insurance. I would not like it - but if they arrive running for a service - they should leave running! If it drove in - it should drive out! If it was towed in as a non runner/rough running/or EML on - I doubt anybody would work out why the injectors failed and the customer would be paying.---------- Edit: This year
I have had a handbrake cable snap when I was getting Corsa MOT'd - I treated them to a new set of handbrake cables.
Volvo XC60 drove in for a battery - I jump started it - starter motor worked - put new battery on - next throw of key with new battery - starter motor failed - I ended up paying for and fitting a new starter motor.
Plus last March - I am stood outside workshop smoking - Ford Fiesta that was in for electrical door lock - car went bang and dropped on one side - front coil spring just broke while it was parked up - I bought/fitted and paid for a spring for that as well.
I just take the line - if you are a customer and not arguing with me - OK with me when I tell you the problem over the phone - I am a very soft touch.
If you are nasty/rude/demanding - I then just turn into the proverbial "brick wall" for complainers/problems.
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remmington
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Post by remmington on Nov 17, 2023 0:13:00 GMT 1
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Post by Noberator on Nov 17, 2023 19:37:05 GMT 1
In the particular case this isn't what happened is it. In your example would any garage own up to what could happen in the event it went t*ts up in remmingtons experience? If it came in running and the injectors failed when I bled a filter change up - personally I would swallow the cost of a set of injectors. I also would not claim on my insurance. I would not like it - but if they arrive running for a service - they should leave running! If it drove in - it should drive out! If it was towed in as a non runner/rough running/or EML on - I doubt anybody would work out why the injectors failed and the customer would be paying.---------- Edit: This year
I have had a handbrake cable snap when I was getting Corsa MOT'd - I treated them to a new set of handbrake cables.
Volvo XC60 drove in for a battery - I jump started it - starter motor worked - put new battery on - next throw of key with new battery - starter motor failed - I ended up paying for and fitting a new starter motor.
Plus last March - I am stood outside workshop smoking - Ford Fiesta that was in for electrical door lock - car went bang and dropped on one side - front coil spring just broke while it was parked up - I bought/fitted and paid for a spring for that as well.
I just take the line - if you are a customer and not arguing with me - OK with me when I tell you the problem over the phone - I am a very soft touch.
If you are nasty/rude/demanding - I then just turn into the proverbial "brick wall" for complainers/problems.
Remmington your actions in your Business is very commendable IMO as you are from a rare breed in this day and age.
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remmington
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Post by remmington on Nov 17, 2023 20:38:07 GMT 1
If it came in running and the injectors failed when I bled a filter change up - personally I would swallow the cost of a set of injectors. I also would not claim on my insurance. I would not like it - but if they arrive running for a service - they should leave running! If it drove in - it should drive out! If it was towed in as a non runner/rough running/or EML on - I doubt anybody would work out why the injectors failed and the customer would be paying.---------- Edit: This year
I have had a handbrake cable snap when I was getting Corsa MOT'd - I treated them to a new set of handbrake cables.
Volvo XC60 drove in for a battery - I jump started it - starter motor worked - put new battery on - next throw of key with new battery - starter motor failed - I ended up paying for and fitting a new starter motor.
Plus last March - I am stood outside workshop smoking - Ford Fiesta that was in for electrical door lock - car went bang and dropped on one side - front coil spring just broke while it was parked up - I bought/fitted and paid for a spring for that as well.
I just take the line - if you are a customer and not arguing with me - OK with me when I tell you the problem over the phone - I am a very soft touch.
If you are nasty/rude/demanding - I then just turn into the proverbial "brick wall" for complainers/problems.
Remmington your actions in your Business is very commendable IMO as you are from a rare breed in this day and age. @noberator - I have had 38 long years - running my own workshop(s). You can't tell every punter to "do one" when things go wrong - you gotta work with them - while they are being OK and working with you - wanting the same end product (a working car) - it is easy work. Get a punter with a high sense of expectation - an attitude - no money - or wants everything for nothing - it is hard work. But these people never get anywhere in the long game - because they need to fund the end repair - to get an "end costing" for a claim in court. And they just won't do it - pay! They just make a lot of noise and evaporate into the ether...
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Post by valhalla on Nov 17, 2023 23:52:17 GMT 1
Remmington your actions in your Business is very commendable IMO as you are from a rare breed in this day and age. @noberator - I have had 38 long years - running my own workshop(s). You can't tell every punter to "do one" when things go wrong - you gotta work with them - while they are being OK and working with you - wanting the same end product (a working car) - it is easy work. Get a punter with a high sense of expectation - an attitude - no money - or wants everything for nothing - it is hard work. But these people never get anywhere in the long game - because they need to fund the end repair - to get an "end costing" for a claim in court. And they just won't do it - pay! They just make a lot of noise and evaporate into the ether... I too have done this sort of thing, but I haven't ever gone as far as pay for the parts; in each case, I do the labour for free, but charge the trade-price for the parts that went wrong. I feel that is fairest for everyone concerned. If they don't like it, well......it's a long way to the next repair-outfit that will work on the sort of sh** I have to put up with.
I have had Merc springs spontaneously go bang out in the parking-area, starter-motors that have been on their last legs, but usually it is duff batteries that catch me out. One eigit thought he could pull "a fast one". It has cost him dearly; I still have his Defender, and I'm not budging on it until he accepts that his battery was dead when it came in. Not least, when I spoke to one of his staff last Christmas, they more-or-less volunteered the information, "Oh, he used to get a jump-start every morning with that, until it went away somewhere....." i.e. it was limped over to my place.
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Post by valhalla on Nov 18, 2023 0:11:10 GMT 1
It does sort of cover it, but if I understand the thread correctly, they infer that it is air entrained in the injector that stops it from running, not that it seizes the injector? I can understand injectors not wanting to purge - some designs are worse than others - but seizure is a puzzle to me.
Fore-warned is fore-armed : I'm not touching any of these !! Sprinter owners can go somewhere else....
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remmington
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Post by remmington on Nov 18, 2023 6:55:35 GMT 1
It does sort of cover it, but if I understand the thread correctly, they infer that it is air entrained in the injector that stops it from running, not that it seizes the injector? I can understand injectors not wanting to purge - some designs are worse than others - but seizure is a puzzle to me. Fore-warned is fore-armed : I'm not touching any of these !! Sprinter owners can go somewhere else.... I had it in my mind - that there was some sort of Delphi injector fitted to four cylinder Merc engines for a short while that were a Peizo - but had no return pipes - and this was what the problem was? But from the read above - the above is turning out to be a figment of my imagination OldGit might be able to clear this up?
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Post by Rhubarb on Nov 18, 2023 14:06:36 GMT 1
Some very good information in that thread. I think some patience would resurrect the injectors I suspect. I notice the last comment regarding brake cleaner. This is what I've always done on a non start derv and it's not failed me yet. I remember the Mondeos 2 litre tdci being a pig after a fuel filter change. They were Delphi I think? Brake cleaner and half throttle for a few minutes was my solution.
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Post by chippie on Nov 18, 2023 14:54:15 GMT 1
[quote author=" remmington" source="/post/91510/thread" timestamp="1700176380" I remember the Mondeos 2 litre tdci being a pig after a fuel filter change. They were Delphi I think? Brake cleaner and half throttle for a few minutes was my solution. I remember when part x-ing my Mondeo, tried to empty the fuel tank (1/2 full it was..) before taking it to the dealers….failed miserably so left it, but managed to empty the filter…. Almost flattened the battery trying to start it afterwards….
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remmington
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Post by remmington on Nov 18, 2023 18:03:12 GMT 1
[quote author=" remmington" source="/post/91510/thread" timestamp="1700176380" I remember the Mondeos 2 litre tdci being a pig after a fuel filter change. They were Delphi I think? Brake cleaner and half throttle for a few minutes was my solution. I remember when part x-ing my Mondeo, tried to empty the fuel tank (1/2 full it was..) before taking it to the dealers….failed miserably so left it, but managed to empty the filter…. Almost flattened the battery trying to start it afterwards…. Some of the later Mondeo diesels had a schrader valve in the fuel line after the filter - you needed to make up an adapter and VAC the diesel out of them to get them to start. Some transits of the same era - would lock the starter out - after excesive cranking and you had to reset them with scan tool. I made mine from a push bike pump screw on adapter cut off and attached to vacuum oil drainer. Rule of thumb: Is after a fitler change on a diesel without a lift pump - fill the filter with derv - large clean washing up bottle is the tool of choice.....
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OldGit
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Post by OldGit on Nov 18, 2023 19:23:36 GMT 1
The schrader valve is for bleeding the fuel line - same on 2.7 Lion engines and a few other Ford & PSA vehicles. Basically, change filter, fit bleed tube to valve, ignition on, watch for air for 45 seconds, repeat until no air, remove bleed line & start vehicle - you don't need to pull suction. The official 'special tool' is just a screw-on tyre inflator with a clear pipe about 600mm long. The French really had the right idea (for once!) in having the inline fuel priming pumps - it's a pity Ford didn't use them along with the engines, I had to buy the aftermarket version - if you have one, use it on the return line, not the flow - it works first time!
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Post by chippie on Nov 18, 2023 20:47:02 GMT 1
Yeah I learned a lot since owning a diesel…. I now always fill the fuel filter after a change…or in the case of vag cars, now I have Vcds, use the tank pump to fill it…
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