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Post by OldGit on Feb 27, 2024 16:38:01 GMT 1
We had some test equipment delivered today - mandated by our dealer group, not the vehicle manufacturer...
Thermal imaging devices, to check BEV batteries before, during and after we bring them into the workshop. Presumably to give us time to get toolboxes out of the way and cameras out to capture the liquid Lithium leaving the enclosure...
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Post by chippie on Feb 27, 2024 18:23:10 GMT 1
I can see how important it is to check each and every ev as it comes in, to ensure there are no hotspots that could lead to a hazardous situation or even lead to loss of life/property…
We take for granted how ‘safe’ ice cars are…
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Post by OldGit on Feb 27, 2024 19:08:13 GMT 1
I suspect it's probably a mixture of insurers getting all twitchy and 'Elfin safety' seeing something they can go over the top with... There's no requirement to check during or after charging - and how are we supposed to differentiate between 'normal' heat build-up and battery warming systems and something about to go Super Nova? I think the reality is, that once a chemical reaction starts, you'd have to be 'wrong place at the right time' to catch it with a thermal imager. No-one has talked to anyone that knows about these things - I'd put money on it.
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Post by remmington on Feb 27, 2024 19:10:02 GMT 1
I can see how important it is to check each and every ev as it comes in, to ensure there are no hotspots that could lead to a hazardous situation or even lead to loss of life/property… We take for granted how ‘safe’ ice cars are…Put it into perspective - I cannot get cover for charging EV cars inside my workshop - plus to do it outside - my insurers want a parking exclusion zone next to EV's being charged (based on the ones we have here - have faults). Petrol cars do catch on fire - atomised diesel hitting hot exhausts is not safe either - but most ICE car fires are either arson or electrical problems. |
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Post by remmington on Feb 27, 2024 19:12:18 GMT 1
I can see how important it is to check each and every ev as it comes in, to ensure there are no hotspots that could lead to a hazardous situation or even lead to loss of life/property… We take for granted how ‘safe’ ice cars are…Put it into perspective - I cannot get cover for charging EV cars inside my workshop - plus to do it outside - my insurers want a parking exclusion zone next to EV's being charged (based on the ones we have here - have faults). Petrol cars do catch on fire - atomised diesel hitting hot exhausts is not safe either - but most ICE car fires are either arson or electrical problems. The fire thing with EV's Phevs - does actually worry me - the batteries are so energy dense. |
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Post by valhalla on Feb 27, 2024 22:10:37 GMT 1
I suspect it's probably a mixture of insurers getting all twitchy and 'Elfin safety' seeing something they can go over the top with... There's no requirement to check during or after charging - and how are we supposed to differentiate between 'normal' heat build-up and battery warming systems and something about to go Super Nova? I think the reality is, that once a chemical reaction starts, y ou'd have to be 'wrong place at the right time' to catch it with a thermal imager. No-one has talked to anyone that knows about these things - I'd put money on it.Fire-safety advice that academia are advising safety-managers of public/tall buildings : "You have 6 seconds to get away from the apparatus [i.e. electric scooter] once the "popping" noise is heard"
What this is all about, and it's the point I made several weeks back, is that it isn't just the heat and the plasma that is going to hurt you; the vapour-cloud of toxic metals and nasty acids is as big a problem as the burns. What you get when the battery-pack starts to heat-up is a pressure within the cells, and this will eventually rupture (the popping noise) the canister or pouch that each cell is housed within.
Fire-service crews are being trained to recognise the risks of tackling these sorts of fires, and the bigger one right now is that even if the appliance [battery pack] is quenched with lots of water (currently the favoured technique), there is a considerable risk of both heavier-than-air and lighter-than-air vapour-cloud spread throughout the building. It looks like black smoke, initially, but that is just the metals being emitted, and immediately afterwards looks like steam - but it ain't.........It's actually a very nasty, acid, and explosive cloud that will ignite when the right oxygen-level is reattained. Like when you open the door.
So far, most people have been lucky in this situation, and they have just been propelled back out the building and protected by their PPE and helmet. That protection is not afforded to innocent bystanders......
So the advice to the punters is, "If you see or hear anything suspicious with an EV or electric-bike, or power-bank, then do not attempt to fix the situation by trying to move it or extinguish it. Run like f***, because you only have a few seconds to get you, and anyone you care-about, away from that object"
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Post by valhalla on Feb 27, 2024 22:23:11 GMT 1
Put it into perspective - I cannot get cover for charging EV cars inside my workshop - plus to do it outside - my insurers want a parking exclusion zone next to EV's being charged (based on the ones we have here - have faults). And nor will you! I have learned a bit more about the whole concept of "thermic lance" in the last couple of weeks. I was wrong....!!!
It isn't just the shooting flames from the (burning) EV that are causing them to go through the floor/s of the car-parks that they are sat within. What is just as significant is the acidic burning of the concrete before and during the emission of the flames from under the vehicle. Think of the effect that spilling a bit of battery-acid has to your lovely concrete workshop floor - I have craters where I used to have my battery charging-station before I moved it! Now, the acids that are jetted-out from these EV cells are a lot more aggressive than a bit of sulphuric acid solution from a lead-acid battery.
Up to now, we have all relied-upon a really decent concrete surface, topped-up by paint, to keep a safe working environment that will contain most things, even a petrol fire. It doesn't matter if the concrete is inside or outside anymore - an EV battery emitting vapour and flames is going to destroy it, one way or another.
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Post by chippie on Feb 27, 2024 22:27:21 GMT 1
I’ve had first hand experience of a lithium fire….
One of my other hobbies is flying rc model aircraft….electric powered, small and large…
The power source is a lipo battery, rangeing from small 450mAh 3 cell packs to large capacity higher voltage packs.
I accidentally reverse connected a pack to a model, the ensuing fire was quite errmmm startling to say the least…
A vehicle size pack catching is more than just a brown trouser moment…
So people, do take care…
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Post by OldGit on Feb 27, 2024 22:53:17 GMT 1
In a BEV situation, I think the Canary would be the coolant beginning to vent, after that, respirator & push yer toolbox out of the door.....
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Post by Noberator on Mar 8, 2024 11:54:44 GMT 1
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Post by chippie on Mar 8, 2024 12:06:58 GMT 1
Beggars belief how a design can be signed off with a major system failure like this with no backup….
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Post by valhalla on Mar 8, 2024 12:38:55 GMT 1
Beggars belief how a design can be signed off with a major system failure like this with no backup…. Yes, it beggars belief. This cannot possibly have happened to a JLR combustion-engine powertrain from JLR : I know, because I've participated in the extensive testing of the softwares that go into all of these.
What we are seeing is the "next generation" of vehicles where the manufacturers have literally "signed-off their own homework" in-lieu of being forced to complete a safety-reaction series of tests by an external authority.
This is one of many, many reasons I think the world has gone mad on recent vehicle design & development. Too much cost-cutting, too many gizmos, not enough thought, not enough testing, no experience or continuity of Engineering.
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Post by Joepublic on Mar 8, 2024 16:50:27 GMT 1
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Post by rhyds on Mar 8, 2024 17:44:51 GMT 1
I agree, it doesn't sound very plausible to me either. |
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Post by OldGit on Mar 8, 2024 19:04:43 GMT 1
The brake system is still hydraulic, so if he'd tried to brake and put some effort into it, the brakes would be showing signs of overheating, regardless of what the motive power was doing.
Anyway, back to the fun stuff! BEV fires 
I came across this...
So seven days outside, 3 weeks untouched inside and it still can throw lightning bolts around akin to crossing the beams in 'Ghostbusters'...
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