Jag X type Woes

[oli]

My father-in-law's 2003 2.5 petrol (180k) manual x-type is causing headaches. I've ducked out as I only do the simple stuff and have little diagnostics kit. The garage looking at it seems to be struggling a bit. It is stuttering on acceleration and flashing the MIL. It's had new plugs, coils filters etc.

They are talking about replacing the injectors now, but it's beginning to sound like stabbing in the dark. I'd have thought a drive with live reading meter should at least tell you which bank of cylinders is causing the trouble. It's back now for the time being.

Any obvious things I can check or known issues? The only thing I found in the past was a rather sluggish looking upstream lambda sensor on one bank of cylinders when looking at live data - this was before the current fault.

Oli

[oli]

Sorry, thought I'd put this in diagnostics! Feel free to move it.

Oli

[studabear]

Any codes, has it got a good service history? (I presume it must to be still going at that mileage)

I would say tread carefully as cost can spiral with someone playing parts darts, esp on a old Xtype that may well be rotten or on its way to being rotten.

[valhalla]

The first thing I would check is for any vacuum leaks to the inlet manifold/s gasket/s, then look at the live data of the OBD information for air/fuel ratio (AFR) under heavier loads.

Given that it is likely to be higher loads, rather than lighter loads, that are causing the problem from your description, it would point away from a vacuum leak, and more towards an over-lean mixture during acceleration i.e. a pre-catalyst Lambda sensor drift in calibration. On that basis alone, after doing some cursory checks for air leaks around the manifolds anyway, I would "parts billiards" my way to fitting a new Lambda sensor in front of the catalyst, then see how it went.

This sort of thing is a lot easier with a scantool, but any OBD simple tool on the DLC will give you an AFR correction to short and long-term trims for each speed and load. From these you can soon see what the engine and controller are trying to do to each other. These tools only cost circa £10 to run over a smartphone, and can give a wealth of data for this sort of problem. It just needs Dad-in_Law to drive where the problem happens, whilst you look at the fuel trims in real-time.

HTH,

[Noberator]

Apr 1, 2019 22:06:11 GMT 1 oli said:

Sorry, thought I'd put this in diagnostics! Feel free to move it.

Oli

Moved to Diagnostics for Oli.

[valhalla]

I think this has a Ford FPDM module, so fuel pressure under transients may be weak. a measure at the cylinder head rail would be a good thing.

[Noberator]

This really needs a proper fault code read as it could be either of the O2 sensors but could possibly relate to a faulty or damaged cat.

I wouldn't be driving it as you could possibly cause more damage to the cat.

It also could be fuel related as the electronic returnless fuel system has the advantages of reduced fuel tank vapor it requires less electrical power and does not require a fuel return line.Fuel is supplied at high pressure to the injectors via a fuel rail which incorporates six fuel injectors a fuel pressure regulator and a fuel temperature sensor. The engine control module (ECM) maintains 380 kPa across the injectors by increasing the pulse width modulation signal to the fuel pump controller. This in turn controls the voltage output to the fuel pump.


A fuel pressure relief valve is fitted to the fuel rail at the front of the camshaft cover. This valve allows the fuel system to be depressurised during servicing and troubleshooting. HTH

[oli]

Apr 1, 2019 22:15:24 GMT 1 studabear said:

Any codes, has it got a good service history? (I presume it must to be still going at that mileage)

I would say tread carefully as cost can spiral with someone playing parts darts, esp on a old Xtype that may well be rotten or on its way to being rotten.

When I scanned it with a simple Autel tool, I got one of the downstream (post cat) lambda sensor fault codes. With live data it shows the upstream sensor is a but sluggish when you blip the throttle compared to the one on the other bank of cylinders. So I suspect downstream sensor is actually fine and it could be the upstream sensor...or something upstream of that. That's when I said "I'm out!" As I don't have the advanced kit, expertise or time to be working on it.

[oli]

Apr 1, 2019 22:21:50 GMT 1 valhalla said:

The first thing I would check is for any vacuum leaks to the inlet manifold/s gasket/s, then look at the live data of the OBD information for air/fuel ratio (AFR) under heavier loads.

Given that it is likely to be higher loads, rather than lighter loads, that are causing the problem from your description, it would point away from a vacuum leak, and more towards an over-lean mixture during acceleration i.e. a pre-catalyst Lambda sensor drift in calibration. On that basis alone, after doing some cursory checks for air leaks around the manifolds anyway, I would "parts billiards" my way to fitting a new Lambda sensor in front of the catalyst, then see how it went.

This sort of thing is a lot easier with a scantool, but any OBD simple tool on the DLC will give you an AFR correction to short and long-term trims for each speed and load. From these you can soon see what the engine and controller are trying to do to each other. These tools only cost circa £10 to run over a smartphone, and can give a wealth of data for this sort of problem. It just needs Dad-in_Law to drive where the problem happens, whilst you look at the fuel trims in real-time.

HTH,

I got FIL to look for leaks - he found one previously that was causing cruise control problems, but nothing this time.

Sorry, should have been clearer - I do have a diagnostics tool - it's a fairly basic autel one that does some live data also. I've not scanned it since it went in.

I don't want to interfere but I'd have thought it needs a run whilst someone looks at live data as you suggest. They keep saying they can't do much unless the MIL stays on which sounds a bit of a simplistic approach to me.

Also all the info I get is fed back second hand via FIL, who isn't car savvy. He told me they'd changed the cam belt the other day - I suspect he means auxiliary belt as his has a chain!

Oli

[Karl]

I’m guessing this has the v6 duratec 2.5 engine

Do you know what faults it’s logging?


Wonder if it’s an inlet manifold runner concern?

Or maybe an restrictive exhaust
But then would you get EML unlikely

If it’s an misfire

You’d think the next logical step would be an compressions check.

Before going along with an fuelling issue

[Roverman]

I once had a problem on this engine when the plugs had been changed, on removing & refitting the manifold a small plastic pipe at the rear of the cylinder head had been damaged causing the mill light to light and engine running rough 

[oli]

I'll try to get an update when I can and wave my code reader over it if I can in the next couple of days.

Thanks for the ideas!

[oli]

Apr 2, 2019 21:40:48 GMT 1 Roverman said:

I once had a problem on this engine when the plugs had been changed, on removing & refitting the manifold a small plastic pipe at the rear of the cylinder head had been damaged causing the mill light to light and engine running rough 

That sounds like the pipe we found to have split a couple of years ago, that was giving a cruise control fault. We replaced it at the time, which fixed things, but I'll check it again as it might have been disturbed when they did the plugs and coils.

Oli

[Noberator]

Apr 3, 2019 8:39:21 GMT 1 oli said:

Apr 2, 2019 21:40:48 GMT 1 Roverman said:

I once had a problem on this engine when the plugs had been changed, on removing & refitting the manifold a small plastic pipe at the rear of the cylinder head had been damaged causing the mill light to light and engine running rough 

That sounds like the pipe we found to have split a couple of years ago, that was giving a cruise control fault. We replaced it at the time, which fixed things, but I'll check it again as it might have been disturbed when they did the plugs and coils.

Oli

Oli what type of spark plugs where fitted as Jags in general don't like multi electrode type of spark plugs.

[oli]

Apr 3, 2019 10:05:03 GMT 1 Noberator said:

Apr 3, 2019 8:39:21 GMT 1 oli said:

That sounds like the pipe we found to have split a couple of years ago, that was giving a cruise control fault. We replaced it at the time, which fixed things, but I'll check it again as it might have been disturbed when they did the plugs and coils.

Oli

Oli what type of spark plugs where fitted as Jags in general don't like multi electrode type of spark plugs.

That's a good question. I'm not sure.

It does seem a fussy b*gger. Shortly after he got it I replaced an oxygen/lambda with a cheap one (needed splicing but correct type) and it was having none of it. Nice posh Bosch (I think) one and it was fine!

Update - new injectors on Monday. They are certain they have the fault now. Sadly I won't get a chance lo look at it until after that. We shall see. Fingers crossed as he loves that car!

Oli