Workshop temps!

[remmington]

Been very cold today - geared up for work!

Thick woolen socks - thermals bottom and longsleeve top - layer and layer of clothing - padded body warmer and hat.

Thick rubber mats on floor.

No heating on at workshop (due to energy crisis).

Cut hours down to "daylight hours" now - 8am to 4pm - it just gets too cold when it gets dark!

[studabear]

2 pairs of thick socks, company supplied work boots.

Pair of work trousers that I can put knee pads in, work supplied trousers over them.

Work supplied short sleeve shirt. Heated body warmer via ebay, uses a power bank via USB in its pocket, work supplied sweat shirt over that, work supplied jacket over that.

Thinsulate wooly hat.

That's me bottom to top. Not been too bad tbf.

[remmington]

Dec 8, 2022 23:14:09 GMT 1 studabear said:

2 pairs of thick socks, company supplied work boots.

Pair of work trousers that I can put knee pads in, work supplied trousers over them.

Work supplied short sleeve shirt. Heated body warmer via ebay, uses a power bank via USB in its pocket, work supplied sweat shirt over that, work supplied jacket over that.

Thinsulate wooly hat.

That's me bottom to top. Not been too bad tbf.

Heated body warmer? These any good? - was looking at Milwaukee 12v ones.

[studabear]

I had one last year it worked for about 5-6 weeks then packed in. Only got this latest one at weekend so we shall see, it certainly seems helps though.

Ebay are Chinese sizes think mine is a xl where as my UK size for clothes is medium. The xl fits well.

[upkeep]

Remember those days well dreadful times, tools frozen to the ramps crap or no heating. now I work in a climate controlled building so always 20 degrees.

[voicey]

It's minus 6 outside right now.  We've had a change of underwriter and are no longer allowed to have a diesel space heater.  I'm heating the kitchen on a thermostatically controlled fan heater which everyone is welcome to take a break in at any time.  If this cold continues I'm probably going to borrow the space heater from next door for 30 mins first thing in the morning to take the edge off!

[remmington]

Dec 10, 2022 9:25:01 GMT 1 voicey said:

It's minus 6 outside right now.  We've had a change of underwriter and are no longer allowed to have a diesel space heater.  I'm heating the kitchen on a thermostatically controlled fan heater which everyone is welcome to take a break in at any time.  If this cold continues I'm probably going to borrow the space heater from next door for 30 mins first thing in the morning to take the edge off!

Insurers are getting funny about - "open flame heaters and welding now"!

In fairness to them - this is the "biggest risk" for them - I can understand it.

Every "garage workshop" fire ever has been down to one of the above.


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Storage of high flash fluids is next - I built a "printers pit" - few courses of engineering bricks - with a 6mm plate lid. To stop melting cans reputuring and speading fire accross the floor..

In times gone past in printing rooms - these were dug into the floor - for solvent for cleaning print type set.

[valhalla]

Ongoing recovery from 'flu is keeping me indoors, and away from the workshop. We are very temperate here; rarely drops below -3c. I haven't seen the temps in the workshop yet.

I would normally work without any sort of heating, not because I don't like heating, but because I need to save the used oil for when my mate comes up each Xmas/New Year, as the heater can drink the storage-container dry in a couple of weeks, and I need some weight in the thing to hold it down in the high winds we see around February.

I have special thermal overalls, but they soon become a bit.......rigid with grime....... Maybe another set of those should be on my Xmas list.

I asked Mrs.V. as to how the shop was doing - she's turned the heating on already during the week... and this has occurred before I have completed my Winter safety-tests on that consumer-box and circuits.....

The biggest saving to our overall energy bill is the lower refridgeration costs that happen at this time of year, with an average consumption of 1.9kW during the day for August now appearing to be nearer 0.9kW in November.

[remmington]

Dec 11, 2022 0:25:14 GMT 1 valhalla said:

Ongoing recovery from 'flu is keeping me indoors, and away from the workshop. We are very temperate here; rarely drops below -3c. I haven't seen the temps in the workshop yet.

I would normally work without any sort of heating, not because I don't like heating, but because I need to save the used oil for when my mate comes up each Xmas/New Year, as the heater can drink the storage-container dry in a couple of weeks, and I need some weight in the thing to hold it down in the high winds we see around February.

I have special thermal overalls, but they soon become a bit.......rigid with grime....... Maybe another set of those should be on my Xmas list.

I asked Mrs.V. as to how the shop was doing - she's turned the heating on already during the week... and this has occurred before I have completed my Winter safety-tests on that consumer-box and circuits.....

The biggest saving to our overall energy bill is the lower refridgeration costs that happen at this time of year, with an average consumption of 1.9kW during the day for August now appearing to be nearer 0.9kW in November.

A small waste oil heater on its lowest setting can drink 50ltrs a day. From memory the smallest one - I have had is 27kw.

Local licensing and flue testing - has put a stop to this type of heater now.

It is £3363 for the first application then £1343/£1507/£2230 a year after that - depending on what size and type of heater you are using.

Plus there are hidden additional costs - if someone reports your "stack" smoking - and there is a public register of who has permits. Inspection fees and costs can add up.

Getting caught burning waste oil without a "permit" - I imagine is very expensive - fine wise!

Most people have gone over to using heating oil in these - heating oil is expensive - but £2k worth will take you over a winter in a small heater - 40 working days - is about the time you need workshop heat on over a winter taking account of 5day working weeks - if you are mean with it.

These numbers are for a small 100 sqm workshop - start adding size and the costs increase.

Another thing to think about is - 100sqm workshop really needs 35kw to bring it up to a decent temp.

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Over the years I done the whole game for workshop heating - gas/lpg/infra red/waste oil/kero.

I have landed at - infra red - local heating - Electic ceramic panel over my desk and Bullfinch panel LPG heater on a trolley with a 47kg bottle.

Noise and fumes from blown air heating - is something I don't like/can't tolerate.

I hate winter in the workshop

Dress up - proper thermals from mountain climbing shop - layers - hat - proper wool socks and rubber mats on the floor. Stay dry at all times - keep eating/moving - go home early as it gets dark.

[valhalla]

Dec 11, 2022 9:14:39 GMT 1 remmington said:

Dec 11, 2022 0:25:14 GMT 1 valhalla said:

A small waste oil heater on its lowest setting can drink 50ltrs a day. From memory the smallest one - I have had is 27kw.

Local licensing and flue testing - has put a stop to this type of heater now.

It is £3363 for the first application then £1343/£1507/£2230 a year after that - depending on what size and type of heater you are using.

Plus there are hidden additional costs - if someone reports your "stack" smoking - and there is a public register of who has permits. Inspection fees and costs can add up.

Getting caught burning waste oil without a "permit" - I imagine is very expensive - fine wise!

Most people have gone over to using heating oil in these - heating oil is expensive - but £2k worth will take you over a winter in a small heater - 40 working days - is about the time you need workshop heat on over a winter taking account of 5day working weeks - if you are mean with it.

These numbers are for a small 100 sqm workshop - start adding size and the costs increase.

Another thing to think about is - 100sqm workshop really needs 35kw to bring it up to a decent temp.

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Over the years I done the whole game for workshop heating - gas/lpg/infra red/waste oil/kero.

I have landed at - infra red - local heating - Electic ceramic panel over my desk and Bullfinch panel LPG heater on a trolley with a 47kg bottle.

Noise and fumes from blown air heating - is something I don't like/can't tolerate.

I hate winter in the workshop

Dress up - proper thermals from mountain climbing shop - layers - hat - proper wool socks and rubber mats on the floor. Stay dry at all times - keep eating/moving - go home early as it gets dark.

I don't like using lighter sorts of oils in these blown heaters; mine has a switched position for diesel, for example, which also covers kerosine and heating oil.

From a combustion-engineering perspective, kerosine and the like can give lots of issues with flaring and flame-outs on a simplistic "wok" -style drip-tray at the base of a combustor drum. The best method for burning vaporized kerosine/diesel is to pre-mix it with clean air, then have a continuous ignition system with trembler-coil and sparking-plug, so any flame-out is instantly dealt-with by an electrical spark.

So from a safety perspective, I just use waste oil, and keep a very close watch on the stack-exit from the workshop throughout the day. My machine is totally clean, and has never produced any visible smoke at any stage in its lifetime with me, so any shift from that would be a fast indicator of problems within the machine.

The heater is not for me! It is used to blow warm air around the place to keep the tools and parts warm and dry, when it isn't being used to mollycoddle my mate from the South over the holidays. If there happened to be a particularly bad day for condensing moisture, then I would have no choice but to fire it all up, as the value of the contents of the workshop outweighs any other costs.

[remmington]

valhalla

Waste oil has more energy in it - burns hotter than 35 sec gas oil and 28 sec kero.

Plus motor oils have got "lighter weight" over the years in general.

[remmington]

I left my little Skoda Citigo courtessy car idling for a few hours the other day.

Sat in it - on and off - got radio/seat/cup holder - had a brew and warm up - ate my pack up.

Just worked the cost of this action out:

2013 1.0 Skoda Citigo

@idle 6.15gram per min

data @ trl.co.uk/uploads/trl/documents/TRL-Idling-Analysis-Summary-v3.pdf

(1 litre = 0.74 kilogram) – Petrol weighs 740grams per litre at 15oC

6.15g x60mins = 369g per hour

Exactly 500ml per hour

If petrol is £1.50 a litre (ish)

75p per hour idling (ish)

1000cc VAG 3 cylinder engine is rated at 1.4kw water jacket heat loss.

And there will be other heat losses: radiant heat, exhaust gas temp, front coolant radiator/pipework.

So the internal blower matrix – is not that powerfull – it is just in a small space and appears to be good.


What supprised me was how low the heat losses are – duty cycle is unreal for modern engine.

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So to conclude - the 1.5kw ceramic heater above my office desk - even @ 34p per kwh (nominal domestic energy cap rate) would only costs 51p an hour to run.

I am still in the last year of a cheap 3yr energy contract - my workshop electric at Day rate is 15.63p + VAT (Night rate 10.21p + VAT). Only till Oct 2023 - then I am expecting a huge shocking leap to about 66.2p + VAT for commercial electricity (there is no energy cap on commercial electricity).

So at the moment my 1.5 kwh single panel electric heater would cost me 28.14p an hour to run. But at the new proposed rate £1.20 ish an hour

OUCH (can't find an emoji for rape)

www.kaloricheater.co.uk/public_html/L2-ceramic-medium-wave-heaters.html
mine is an older version of this
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The math continues - my propane Bullfinch gemini two panel heater - on a 47kg bottle.

47kg propane bottle contains 2183244 btu or with conversion 639.69 kw

At £90 squid a bottle - one panel at 2.8kw costs 40p per hour to run and two panels at 5.6kw 80p per hour

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324359361844?hash=item4b85531534:g:HuEAAOSwyHhfoCXu&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoHu4Fz%2F1f25rMZ7DX0GD9AiVG2H%2FYgQlSozoLgoRI8gUK79jpRNdGuT%2BlotrHOKM%2B6KxHXWDYfStK1B0pKkqZ9DLLmdBUFjS4M0lGZuk9gxmZN4%2BIwjBk4ZQH0fKkyN7%2FZ%2BIoig4iKc8ZosQV%2FRsco%2FHIH2yuaEs%2FWX9Fqo7rmSLcOSw%2FsNADXBn9NCpRhx26kj%2BTrGvQxDU9GWx3PXHPZE%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_yuvLWgYQ

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valhalla

Gas oil has 10.85kw of energy per litre.
Kero has 10.35kw of energy per litre.
Waste oil has 18.60kw of energy per litre for 50W SAE (your mixed multigrade is gonna be less - but not by much).
Waste oil has twice the energy stored in it than LPG has per litre.

[huffo]

remmington. Thanks for this: I love this kind of back-of-envelope calculation.

Fascinating when I realise the overhead cost of heating a workshop.

My Land Rover 110 is going in for it’s MoT today. I hope it’ll be fine. I normally give it a once over myself before taking it in, but wife and kids have all been poorly so not had a chance to ‘play’ with my Land-Rovers (‘playing’ is how my wife perceives my safety and reliability-critical vehicle maintenance activities!).

The kids and I have made and decorated a batch of ginger-bread men for everyone at the garage. I think I ensured the kids washed their hands and avoided coughing into the biscuits! Hope they don’t perceive I’m trying to bribe a pass for the Landy!!

[studabear]

Did the bribe help? 😆

[valhalla]

Dec 11, 2022 20:19:29 GMT 1 remmington said:

valhalla

Waste oil has more energy in it - burns hotter than 35 sec gas oil and 28 sec kero.

Plus motor oils have got "lighter weight" over the years in general.

This is true, but isn't the issue at-stake with flaring and surging above a hot evaporation tray. Volatility is the name of the game.

This is why everyone has the perception that gasoline is more dangerous than diesel - that is only true as far as getting the stuff to ignite, after which diesel is very much a more energy-dense and potential life-limiting fuel to have constrained in a sealed tank under the car (hence the earth-straps on early diesel plastic fuel-tanks and filler-necks were much more robust and comprehensive than the gasoline equivalents - you absolutely do not want an electrical spark in the vapour sitting over a tank of diesel).

You get more bangs for your bucks in a litre of heavy oil, compared to a light oil, but it's more controllable.

If you want to prove this point out (I suggest you do not do this.........), get a waste oil heater good and hot - up to running temperature - then let it run out of fuel. Feed a little waste oil back in the pan, watch it flash-off, then stick a lighted taper through one of the air-ports near the pan......it will light with a "whoosh", but you'll escape with your eyebrows intact (probably).

Now (definitely do not do this.......) repeat the experiment with diesel fuel to refuel the pan when it has initially run out of fuel. The result is quite different. You might even survive......